diff --git a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-cli.hoon b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-cli.hoon
index b56c8860b..0c4bc4bf6 100644
--- a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-cli.hoon
+++ b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-cli.hoon
@@ -770,6 +770,7 @@
           policy
           ~
           (fall allow-history %.y)
+          with-group
       ==
     ::  +delete: delete local chats
     ::
diff --git a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-hook.hoon b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-hook.hoon
index 80d373bc4..4d0916f06 100644
--- a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-hook.hoon
+++ b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-hook.hoon
@@ -331,7 +331,7 @@
   ?~  ship  ~
   ?.  =(u.ship our.bol)  ~
   ::  check if write is permitted
-  ?.  (is-permitted:grp src.bol path.act)  ~
+  ?.  (is-permitted:grp src.bol (group-from-chat path.act))  ~
   =:  author.envelope.act  src.bol
       when.envelope.act  now.bol
   ==
@@ -405,7 +405,7 @@
   ?>  ?=(^ pax)
   ?>  (~(has by synced) pax)
   ::  check if read is permitted
-  ?>  (is-permitted:grp src.bol pax)
+  ?>  (is-permitted:grp src.bol (group-from-chat pax))
   =/  box  (chat-scry pax)
   ?~  box  !!
   [%give %fact ~ %chat-update !>([%create pax])]~
@@ -418,8 +418,7 @@
   =/  backlog-latest=(unit @ud)  (rush (snag last `(list @ta)`pax) dem:ag)
   =/  pas  `path`(oust [last 1] `(list @ta)`pax)
   ?>  ?=([* ^] pas)
-  ?>  (~(has by synced) pas)
-  ?>  (is-permitted:grp src.bol pas)
+  ?>  (is-permitted:grp src.bol (group-from-chat pas))
   =/  envs  envelopes:(need (chat-scry pas))
   =/  length  (lent envs)
   =/  latest
@@ -450,47 +449,27 @@
 ++  fact-group-update
   |=  [wir=wire =update:group-store]
   ^-  (quip card _state)
-  |^
   :_  state
-  ?.  ?=(?(%add-members %remove-members) -.update)
+  ?.  ?=(%remove-members -.update)
     ~
   =/  =path
     (en-path:resource resource.update)
-  ?-  -.update
-      %add-members      (handle-permissions [%add path ships.update])
-      %remove-members   (handle-permissions [%remove path ships.update])
-  ==
-  ::
-  ++  handle-permissions
-    |=  [kind=?(%add %remove) pax=path who=(set ship)]
-    ^-  (list card)
-    %-  zing
-    %+  turn
-      (chats-of-group pax)
-    |=  chat=path
-    ^-  (list card)
-    =/  owner  (~(get by synced) chat)
-    ?~  owner  ~
-    ?.  =(u.owner our.bol)  ~
-    %-  zing
-    %+  turn  ~(tap in who)
-    |=  =ship
-    ?:  (is-permitted:grp ship chat)
-      ?:  ?|(=(kind %remove) =(ship our.bol) (is-managed-path:grp pax))  ~
-      ::  if ship has just been added to the permitted group,
-      ::  send them an invite
-      ~[(send-invite chat ship)]
-    ::  if ship is not permitted, kick their subscription
-    [%give %kick [%mailbox chat]~ `ship]~
-  ::
-  ++  send-invite
-    |=  [=path =ship]
-    ^-  card
-    =/  =invite  [our.bol %chat-hook path ship '']
-    =/  act=invite-action  [%invite /chat (shaf %msg-uid eny.bol) invite]
-    [%pass / %agent [our.bol %invite-hook] %poke %invite-action !>(act)]
-  ::
-  --
+  =/  chats
+    (chats-of-group path)
+  %-  zing
+  %+  turn
+    chats
+  |=  chat=^path
+  ^-  (list card)
+  =/  owner
+    (~(get by synced) chat)
+  ?~  owner  ~
+  ?.  =(u.owner our.bol)
+    ~
+  %+  turn
+    ~(tap in ships.update)
+  |=  =ship
+  [%give %kick [%mailbox chat]~ `ship]
 ::
 ++  fact-chat-update
   |=  [wir=wire =update:store]
@@ -613,7 +592,7 @@
       [%mailbox @ @ @ ~]  (migrate t.wir)
   ::
       [%store @ *]
-    ?:  ?=([@ @ @ ~] t.wir)
+    ?:  ?=([%store @ @ @ ~] t.wir)
       (migrate t.wir)
     (poke-chat-hook-action %remove t.wir)
   ::
@@ -725,6 +704,14 @@
     /resource-indices
   ==
 ::
+++  group-from-chat
+  |=  app-path=path
+  ^-  group-path
+  =/  groups=(list group-path)
+    (groups-of-chat app-path)
+  ?>  ?=(^ groups)
+  i.groups
+::
 ++  scry
   |*  [=mold app=term =path]
   .^  mold
diff --git a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-view.hoon b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-view.hoon
index 76d2afb73..fb754e0fd 100644
--- a/pkg/arvo/app/chat-view.hoon
+++ b/pkg/arvo/app/chat-view.hoon
@@ -11,13 +11,15 @@
     *chat-hook,
     *metadata-hook,
     hook=chat-hook,
-    contact-view
+    contact-view,
+    pull-hook
 /+  *server, default-agent, verb, dbug,
     store=chat-store,
     view=chat-view,
     group-store,
     grpl=group,
-    resource
+    resource,
+    mdl=metadata
 ::
 ~%  %chat-view-top  ..is  ~
 |%
@@ -118,9 +120,9 @@
     ^-  (quip card _this)
     ?+    -.sign  (on-agent:def wire sign)
         %poke-ack
-      ?.  ?=([%join-group @ @ @ @ ~] wire)
+      ?.  ?=([%join-group @ @ @ @ @ ~] wire)
         (on-agent:def wire sign)
-      ?~  p.sign
+      ?^  p.sign
         (on-agent:def wire sign)
       =/  =ship
         (slav %p i.t.wire)
@@ -174,6 +176,7 @@
 ~%  %chat-view-library  ..card  ~
 |_  bol=bowl:gall
 ++  grp  ~(. grpl bol)
+++  md   ~(. mdl bol)
 ::
 ++  poke-handle-http-request
   |=  =inbound-request:eyre
@@ -218,6 +221,7 @@
             members.act
             title.act
             description.act
+            managed.act
         ==
         (create-metadata title.act description.act group-path.act app-path.act)
     ==
@@ -229,25 +233,51 @@
     :+  (chat-hook-poke [%remove app-path.act])
       (chat-poke [%delete app-path.act])
     ::  if we still have metadata for the chat, remove it, and the associated
-    ::  group if it's unmanaged
+    ::  group if it's unmanaged.
     ::
     ::    we aren't guaranteed to have metadata: the chat might have been
     ::    deleted by the host, which pushes metadata deletion down to us.
     ::
-    =/  group=path
-      (group-from-chat app-path.act)
+    =/  maybe-group-path
+      (maybe-group-from-chat app-path.act)
+    ?~  maybe-group-path
+      ~
+    =*  group-path  u.maybe-group-path
     =/  rid=resource
-      (de-path:resource group)
+      (de-path:resource group-path)
+    =/  maybe-group
+      (scry-group:grp rid)
+    =/  hidden
+      ?~  maybe-group
+        %.n
+      hidden.u.maybe-group
     %-  zing
-    :~  ?.  (is-creator group %chat app-path.act)  ~
-        [(metadata-poke [%remove group [%chat app-path.act]])]~
+    :~  ?.  (is-creator group-path %chat app-path.act)
+          ~
+        [(metadata-poke [%remove group-path [%chat app-path.act]])]~
       ::
+        ?.  hidden
+          ~
         :~  (group-proxy-poke %remove-members rid (sy our.bol ~))
             (group-poke [%remove-group rid ~])
-            (metadata-hook-poke [%remove group])
-            (metadata-store-poke [%remove group [%chat app-path.act]])
+            (metadata-hook-poke [%remove group-path])
+            (metadata-store-poke [%remove group-path [%chat app-path.act]])
         ==
     ==
+  ::
+      %invite
+    =/  =group-path
+      (need (maybe-group-from-chat app-path.act))
+    =/  rid=resource
+      (de-path:resource group-path)
+    =/  =group
+      (need (scry-group:grp rid))
+    ?>  ?=(%invite -.policy.group)
+    :-  (group-poke %change-policy rid %invite %add-invites ships.act)
+    %+  turn
+      ~(tap in ships.act)
+    |=  =ship
+    (send-invite group-path app-path.act ship)
   ::
       %join
     ::  joining unmanaged chat if we don't have the group already
@@ -256,26 +286,28 @@
     ?^  group-path
       ~[(chat-hook-poke %add-synced ship.act app-path.act ask-history.act)]
     =/  rid=resource
-      (de-path:resource app-path.act)
+      (de-path:resource ship+app-path.act)
     =/  =cage
-      :-  %group-action
+      :-  %group-update
       !>  ^-  action:group-store
       [%add-members rid (sy our.bol ~)]
     ::  we need this info in the wire to continue the flow after the
     ::  poke ack
     =/  =wire
       :-  %join-group
-      [(scot %p ship.act) ?:(ask-history.act %y %n) app-path.act]
-    [%pass wire %agent [entity.rid %group-hook] %poke cage]~
+      [(scot %p ship.act) ?:(ask-history.act %y %n) ship+app-path.act]
+    [%pass wire %agent [entity.rid %group-push-hook] %poke cage]~
   ::
       %groupify
     =*  app-path  app-path.act
+    =/  group-path
+      (snag 0 (groups-from-resource:md %chat app-path))
     =/  scry-pax=path
-      /metadata/[(scot %t (spat app-path))]/chat/[(scot %t (spat app-path))]
+      /metadata/[(scot %t (spat group-path))]/chat/[(scot %t (spat app-path))]
     =/  =metadata
       (need (scry-for (unit metadata) %metadata-store scry-pax))
     =/  old-rid=resource
-      (de-path:resource app-path)
+      (de-path:resource group-path)
     ?<  (is-managed:grp old-rid)
     ?~  existing.act
       ::  just create contacts object for group
@@ -290,7 +322,7 @@
       (need (scry-group:grp rid))
     =/  ships=(set ship)
       (~(dif in members.old-group) members.group)
-    :*  (metadata-store-poke %remove app-path %chat app-path)
+    :*  (metadata-store-poke %remove ship+app-path %chat app-path)
         (metadata-store-poke %add group-path [%chat app-path] metadata)
         (group-poke %remove-group old-rid ~)
         ?.  inclusive.u.existing.act
@@ -311,16 +343,16 @@
     ==
   ::
   ++  create-group
-    |=  [=path app-path=path =policy ships=(set ship) title=@t desc=@t]
+    |=  [=path app-path=path =policy ships=(set ship) title=@t desc=@t managed=?]
     ^-  (list card)
-    ?^  (group-scry path)  ~
+    ?^  (scry-group-path:grp path)  ~
     =/  rid=resource
       (de-path:resource path)
     ?>  =(our.bol entity.rid)
     ::  do not create a contacts object if this is unmanaged
     ::
     :-
-      ?:  =(path app-path)
+      ?.  managed
         (group-poke %add-group rid policy %.y)
       (contact-view-poke %create name.rid policy title desc)
     %+  murn  ~(tap in ships)
@@ -338,9 +370,7 @@
           description   description
           date-created  now.bol
           creator
-        %+  slav  %p
-        ?:  (is-managed app-path)  (snag 0 app-path)
-        (snag 1 app-path)
+        (slav %p (snag 0 app-path))
       ==
     :~  (metadata-poke [%add group-path [%chat app-path] metadata])
         (metadata-hook-poke [%add-owned group-path])
@@ -365,7 +395,7 @@
     |=  [group-path=path app-path=path =ship]
     ^-  card
     =/  managed=?
-      !=(app-path group-path)
+      !=(ship+app-path group-path)
     =/  =invite
       :*  our.bol
           ?:(managed %contact-hook %chat-hook)
@@ -439,8 +469,9 @@
   ^-  (list card)
   =/  =path
     (en-path:resource rid)
-  :~  (group-hook-poke %add rid)
-      (chat-hook-poke %add-synced ship path ask-history)
+  ?>  ?=(^ path)
+  :~  (group-pull-hook-poke %add ship rid)
+      (chat-hook-poke %add-synced ship t.path ask-history)
       (metadata-hook-poke %add-synced ship path)
   ==
 ::
@@ -457,18 +488,18 @@
   [%pass / %agent [our.bol %chat-store] %poke %chat-action !>(act)]
 ::
 ++  group-poke
-  |=  act=action:group-store
+  |=  upd=update:group-store
   ^-  card
-  [%pass / %agent [our.bol %group-store] %poke %group-action !>(act)]
-++  group-hook-poke
-  |=  act=action:group-hook
+  [%pass / %agent [our.bol %group-store] %poke %group-update !>(upd)]
+++  group-pull-hook-poke
+  |=  act=action:pull-hook
   ^-  card
-  [%pass / %agent [our.bol %group-hook] %poke %group-hook-action !>(act)]
+  [%pass / %agent [our.bol %group-pull-hook] %poke %pull-hook-action !>(act)]
 ::
 ++  group-proxy-poke
   |=  act=action:group-store
   ^-  card
-  [%pass / %agent [entity.resource.act %group-hook] %poke %group-action !>(act)]
+  [%pass / %agent [entity.resource.act %group-push-hook] %poke %group-update !>(act)]
 ::
 ++  permission-poke
   |=  act=permission-action
@@ -508,10 +539,7 @@
   ^-  (list envelope:store)
   (scry-for (list envelope:store) %chat-store [%envelopes pax])
 ::
-++  group-scry
-  |=  pax=path
-  ^-  (unit group)
-  (scry-for (unit group) %group-store [%groups pax])
+
 ::
 ++  scry-for
   |*  [=mold app=term =path]
diff --git a/pkg/arvo/lib/chat-view.hoon b/pkg/arvo/lib/chat-view.hoon
index e17224e34..2d2baff0d 100644
--- a/pkg/arvo/lib/chat-view.hoon
+++ b/pkg/arvo/lib/chat-view.hoon
@@ -18,6 +18,7 @@
           [%delete delete]
           [%join join]
           [%groupify groupify]
+          [%invite invite]
       ==
     ::
     ++  create
@@ -29,6 +30,7 @@
           [%policy policy:dejs:group-store]
           [%members (as (su ;~(pfix sig fed:ag)))]
           [%allow-history bo]
+          [%managed bo]
       ==
     ::
     ++  delete
@@ -44,6 +46,11 @@
     ++  groupify
       =-  (ot [%app-path pa] [%existing -] ~)
       (mu (ot [%group-path pa] [%inclusive bo] ~))
+    ++  invite
+      %-  ot
+      :~  app-path+pa
+          ships+(as (su ;~(pfix sig fed:ag)))
+      ==
     --
   --
 --
diff --git a/pkg/arvo/sur/chat-view.hoon b/pkg/arvo/sur/chat-view.hoon
index 14511ff5d..ee0cdb2ad 100644
--- a/pkg/arvo/sur/chat-view.hoon
+++ b/pkg/arvo/sur/chat-view.hoon
@@ -3,11 +3,6 @@
 |%
 +$  action
   $%  ::  %create: create a new chat
-      ::
-      ::    if :app-path and :group-path are different, :members must be empty,
-      ::    as the :group-path is assumed to exist.
-      ::    if :app-path and :group-path are identical, and the :group-path
-      ::    doesn't yet exist, will create a new group with :members.
       ::
       $:  %create
           title=@t
@@ -17,9 +12,11 @@
           =policy
           members=(set ship)
           allow-history=?
+          managed=?
       ==
       [%delete app-path=path]
       [%join =ship app-path=path ask-history=?]
+      [%invite app-path=path ships=(set ship)]
       ::  %groupify: for unmanaged %village chats: recreate as group-based chat
       ::
       ::    will delete the old chat, recreate it based on a proper group,